[Theme music playing] ♪ ♪ The theory of representation is that if you can see it, you can be it, but representation might also be a way to occasionally signal inclusion without changing the power structure at all.

Either way, we don't spend much time talking about who's doing the representing and how it feels on their shoulders.

Constance Wu is almost always introduced as an Asian-American actress, which is true, and a source of pride, and also a lot of pressure to put on one person to represent a billion-plus people in every move they make, every interview they give, and every tweet they post.

This is a conversation about the honor, impact, and sometimes life-threatening heaviness of representing.

I'm Kelly Corrigan, this is "Tell Me More," and here is my conversation with actress, author, and individual, Constance Wu.

[Theme music playing] ♪ Hey.

Hello.

Thanks a lot for saying yes.

Yeah, of course.

Nice to be here.

So we have something in common.

I went to University of Richmond.

Yes, which I grew up, really, a hop, skip, and a jump away from.

So what was your childhood like?

I mean, it was kind of very normal.

Uh-huh.

You know, I--it's funny 'cause I wrote a book, and a lot of actor books, you hear these extraordinary stories of, like, overcoming, you know, trauma or, like, redemption and I feel like, growing up in Richmond, I had just a lovely childhood.

I mean, I think people often expect me to talk about racism or--and I just feel like--I mean, you know.

People in Richmond are incredibly kind.

Yeah, yeah.

Like, manners matter.

Yeah.

It's a place where, when we moved into our medium-sized, suburban, middle-class house, we were immediately welcomed in the neighborhood, even though we were pretty much the only non-white people there at the time.

Yeah.

Of course, now it's diversified a lot.

Yeah, and you always wanted to be an actress.

You were a kid with, like, bold emotions, looking for a home for those big, big feelings.

Oh, yes, it was very clear that I was the one who held all the emotions, and everybody else was a little bit more even-keel.

Uh-huh, I'm smiling 'cause that's who I was.

[Both chuckle] Yeah, and-- and it's funny because I think, even in Virginia, it's...like, the word "cool" means being cool, like, calm.

Right.

And steady, and so I think, when you're a kid and you want to be cool, big feelings, once you become a teenager, become kind of embarrassing.

If you're naturally calm, that's great, but if you're like me, who is emotional, and you repress it for too long, it inevitably comes out in other ways, it just--it doesn't go away just because you will it to go away.

Right.

So having theater was sort of my outlet for that.

Do you remember the first time you were watching someone act and you thought, "That--that's it"?

Oh, no, it--not watching somebody act, but my first-ever theater audition was for a community theater production of "A Little Princess."

I only went to the audition 'cause I was, like, tagging along with one of my girlfriends.

And we got to watch all the other girls audition onstage with the same monologue, and they were all, like, stiff and nervous, and I remember thinking, like, "Wait, why are they-- why are they being so nervous when this is their chance to be free?"

'Cause if you're emotional onstage, it's not you being emotional.

Those aren't your words.

Those are the playwright's words.

That's the character.

And I just remember going up there and doing my audition, which, in hindsight, was ridiculous-- like, this little... Heh heh!

10-year-old girl, wringing her, you know, arms to the heavens... Heh heh heh!

but just feeling, like, completely free, and also, I was a big extrovert, and I feel like, in theater, extroverts are celebrated and so it was always the place where I felt truly at home.

Yeah.

And I discovered it pretty early, so I was very lucky in that regard.

When did you start sort of seriously applying yourself to it as a student?

Well, when I was 16, I did a summer program at Lee Strasberg Theatre Institute in New York.

Uh-huh.

And that's when it sort of became more, like, serious, I guess?

Mm-hmm.

Which you don't realize when you're a kid.

You just--you're just trying to prove something, you know?

Right.

And I think I just wanted to be taken seriously, like, my feelings be taken seriously as a person.

Uh-huh.

And I think I thought, that by becoming a serious actress... Mm-hmm.

My feelings would be taken seriously, they'd be respected.

And so, when I became a senior in high school and I was looking at colleges, I exclusively applied to BFA, classical theater programs 'cause I just knew that was what I was going to do, no matter what.

♪ Does learning how to act prepare you for a public life?

Like, do you... No.

sometimes feel like you're slipping into character for...

I don't think it does.

I think--I--I mean, I think it could.

The thing it gave me was an ability to tap into a sense of abandon and freedom, so I don't think acting school did that for me, but I do think waitressing did that for me.

So you--you waitressed.

You waitressed at some steakhouse and-- Well, many different places, but--but yes.

BOA Steakhouse in West Hollywood was the--the last place I waited tables.

And you had famous clients all the time.

All the time, yeah, and--and same thing in New York, when I was waitressing in New York.

All the time.

Who was your most famous that you ever waited on?

Probably Oprah.

How'd it go?

Well, I accidentally spilled some water on her table.

Heh heh!

Like, I knocked an entire glass.

Do you think it happens to her wherever she goes, that just the waitress gets so nervous that they're knocking stuff?

Maybe.

Who knows?

I mean, she was lovely about it.

Yeah.

Barely even... it was like nothing had happened, and I was like, "Oh, my God!

I'm so sorry!"

Heh!

But being a waitress, you're exposed to so many different... people, not just as your customers, but also the people who work in the restaurant.

Yes, yes.

You know, there's not just ethnic diversity, but there's educational diversity, there's socio-economic diversity, but hanging out with and, like, having a drink with people.

And being peers with.

Being peers with people who are from all walks of life, all different countries.

I think that was what really helped me, um, learn how to listen, learn, um, how to be with many different kinds of people, more so than acting did, yeah.

At 20, you went to Taiwan to live in a monastery?

Yes, I went and I lived on a secluded mountaintop in Kaohsiung, Taiwan at a Buddhist monastery for a summer, living a monastic life.

What was your intention?

How long did you think you were gonna be there?

How did it change you?

It's always been hard for me to talk about because I want to...honor it and be true to it, but at the same time, I want to make sure that I'm not exoticizing it the way I think Westerners tend to do with Eastern religions, I think, sometimes, to the detriment of their own-- their own religions.

I think it's very tempting to--I think it's very fashionable, in fact, to pooh-pooh and talk about the hypocrisy of Catholicism or Christianity and to say, "Oh, but other religions like Buddhism, they're different."

And when you actually grow up next to them the way somebody here might grow up next to a Christian neighbor, you find that the hypocrisy and scandal is in every system that's created by humans.

We just don't see it here because we're not next-door neighbors with it, so I think part of the problem is when people try to think of Buddhism as a "better religion"... Yep.

than Catholicism, and if anything, I would like for my story to make people reconsider the religions that they were born with or born around and reconsider their judgment of it and understand that it's not the religion itself that is at fault, but usually, it's humans practicing imperfectly.

Are you a spiritual person now?

I would say I am a pro-religion person, but that I do not subscribe to any particular religion.

If there were one that I really like, I would think it's Quakerism, but, um...

I think religion is good for the soul, and I think it gets a bad rap because we only hear the bad stories because they're the extraordinary ones.

Yeah.

But there's also really tiny stories happening every single day around you that are unsexy, unsensational, but are just small stories of how religion has helped people... Yeah.

find community, find their way through a hard time, find meaning.

Yeah.

What the heck's wrong with that?

Speaking of tending to the soul and hard times... Yeah.

you stepped away from public life for 3 years... [Sighs] Yeah.

after a moment on Twitter that blew all sorts of horrible winds your way.

One show that was renewed for its sixth season is ABC's "Fresh Off the Boat."

Well, you would think one of the stars of the show, Constance Wu, would be very excited about one more year of paychecks, but not so much.

The actress didn't seem to love the news.

So, after the announcement, Constance tweeted, "So upset right now that I'm literally crying.

Ugh.

[Bleep]" An hour later, she tweeted, "[Bleep] hell."

Well, you already know that people are gonna say something, so if you don't want to deal with that, just don't post the [bleep].

Um, I get, like, emotional thinking about it because it wasn't the blowback.

I mean, I sort of had Internet piling on, um, but, you know, I-- I almost killed myself over--over it, like, I sort of really lost my way and it was really scary.

And I'm a person who--I feel like I've always been pretty grounded and pretty OK with, like, social-media scrutiny and stuff like this, but this really caught me off-guard, um... so much so that, like, yeah, it was-- it was rough and it was scary, you know, and I ended up in the hospital, but ultimately, it was was something that was really helpful... [Sniffles] for me, so--sorry.

Can I have a Kleenex or something?

I don't want to, like... Ha ha!

ruin all my beautiful makeup.

Huh?

You look great.

As--you know, I said I'm full of emotions.

This is normal for me... Yeah.

so I will-- might do it again during this interview, unfortunately, and it's... That's OK. very embarrassing.

I don't know.

It feels very real to me, and it's a big topic and a lot of people are caught in this web, so can you just tell us the basics of the story?

Yeah, I mean, I had sort of a moment of heat where I found out my TV show, "Fresh Off the Boat," was being renewed after I had been told that it probably wasn't being renewed, and, um, I had pursued other jobs that I was really excited about, and also I was just ready to move on from it because it was a really difficult set where I had been intimidated and sexually harassed for 5 years, and I had swallowed that and kept that in in order to preserve everyone else's jobs on that show, in order to preserve the reputation of the show.

I just didn't want to sully this one show that was, like, a beacon of hope in terms of representation for Asian-Americans.

So I had swallowed the abuse and harassment for 5 to 6 years, and even though I eventually ended up loving everybody on that show, except for the producer who sexually harassed me and intimidated me and bullied me and threatened me, um, I...I made it work and I got through it and I was like, "OK," like, I was ready to put it behind me and never talk about that again.

And so, when I found out that it was renewed, it-- I think all the feelings I'd been having for, like, 5, 6 years that I had been repressing because I wanted to preserve the reputation of the show inevitably came out, and I think, you know, I made some very out-of-character tweets, where I actually think now, looking back, they're kind of funny, where I was like-- can I say ... hell?

Sure.

I was like, "... hell, man!

I hate this show!

It sucks!"

I didn't say, "It sucks," but I basically-- I wasn't grateful.

I was canceled for not being grateful, and I wasn't gracious, I didn't stay in my lane, um, and I... [Sighs] yeah, I was sloppy.

I was reckless.

You were direct.

You were honest.

Yeah, and I mean-- and I was honest in that moment, I was upset in that moment.

Is it the honest truth and how I feel totally about the entire experience?

No, but that's...

I mean...that's-- it was a true feeling.

But it wasn't until a former colleague of mine, also an Asian actress, sent me some DMs, messages, shaming me to the point of making me feel like I didn't deserve to live anymore because I had, um, really let down the Asian community, and that, um, and I think it was-- it was really her message that... sent me over the edge, so to speak, where I tried to take my own life, but... and that's when I was like, "Wow, I need to step back."

It was a scary moment that ultimately made me reassess and take a breath 'cause...

I hadn't had preparation for being in the public eye.

And then I had to really learn about it once I got on "Fresh Off the Boat," and then I got "Crazy Rich Asians," which was the same conversation because it was a huge breakthrough and I'm like, "I'm starring in both of these huge breakthroughs," which make people think I'm in line with this conversation, but it's quite new to me as well.

I always just wanted to be an actress.

I actually never thought about it, my Asian-American representation in Hollywood, until I was cast in "Fresh Off the Boat" because I was too busy trying to figure out how to make rent.

I am so glad that there are conversations like these, but we have to understand that having these types of conversations are a privilege because some people just are trying to survive...

Right.

to make rent, to put food on the table.

Yeah, that's really interesting.

I feel like the pressure to be a symbol... Yeah.

it must be kind of exhausting.

I mean... [Sighs] it's exhausting-- it's always exhausting not being yourself, but--but then again, there are many versions of yourself, right?

And the first public image I had was with a family show that was important for Asian-American representation.

Do you feel like representation is affecting what actually goes on on-set, or is this, what we're seeing onscreen not really moving the needle behind the scenes?

You know, I'm not sure.

It certainly appears to have more, um, opportunities, but I'm not sure if that's born out of a fad or an actual appreciation for the value that representation offers to the narrative landscape.

I think it's harmful that... sometimes Asian-Americans are so focused on positive representation, saying, like, "Oh, we never have romantic leading men.

"Our men are so emasculated."

And so what's the answer, to have...a guy with 6-pack abs?

Mm.

Isn't that just sort of, like, the same thing?

I mean, yes, we need that, but we also need, like... somebody who doesn't have 6-pack abs to be worthy of a story as well.

And sometimes I worry that when actors are like, "I refuse to play stereotypical parts, "I refuse to do this, I'm, you know-- only want good representation of Asians," I worry... that a statement like that reinforces... white supremacy in a way because artists are creative, not reactive, and if your... artistic choices are a reaction to a system that never knew you or understood you in the first place, it only solidifies the concept that however that system portrayed you is inherently shameful.

Mm-hmm.

So if somebody makes fun of your parents' accent because they don't know ... about your parents, instead of saying, "I don't want to have an accent like my parents," let's be like, "Yeah, what's so shameful about my accent?

Truly, what is?"

Right.

It means, you know, two languages.

That's actually pretty cool, so why would I refuse to play that?

Yes, Asians are, like, stereotyped as, like, the nerd.

OK, what's wrong with that?

Let's talk about that.

Rather than avoiding stereotypes, I think we got to--need to, like, sink into them because Hollywood really did them wrong the first time.

So rather than reinforcing the idea that these "stereotypes" are inherently shameful, I think we need truly great actors who can humanize these stereotypes, so rather than being reductive, they're expansive.

And I think true artists don't cater their choices to accommodate... ignorance.

♪ So social media, you know, it's like a--the wrath of destruction, and then sometimes good things can happen there.

What's the best thing about it?

What's the worst thing about it, in your opinion?

I think it's been really great for raising awareness of, um, a lot of issues of inequality... Mm-hmm.

that, you know, my public school system kind of didn't always educate me on.

Yeah, they kind of gloss over it sometimes.

Yeah, or even banned.

Uh-huh.

You know, the fact that some schools want to, like, ban critical race theory.

Yeah.

They just don't even want it to be taught.

You can learn about that stuff on the Internet, and I think that's really important.

What's the worst?

I think it lends a lot to social isolation.

I think there's a lot to be said for human contact that's eye-to-eye, no phone on the table.

Mm-hmm.

But the phone has now become a--like, when I grew up, like, it would have been rude to look at your phone...

Incredible.

during a meal, but now it's, like, normal, and I think, um, you miss a lot of moments of connection when the phone is even poss--a possibility.

♪ Constance Wu, are you ready for the "Tell Me More" speed round?

Yes.

First concert?

Mandy Patinkin, singing Oscar and Steve.

Best live performance you've ever seen.

Mandy Patinkin, singing Oscar and Steve.

Ha ha!

Although I did see Beyoncé a couple years ago, and that was pretty great.

What was your first paying gig?

I worked at a bakery in Richmond, Virginia, called Montana Gold Bread Company.

Last book that blew you away.

"Writers & Lovers," by Lily King.

If your high school did superlatives, what would you have been most likely to become?

My high school did do superlatives, and I was actually voted most musically talented.

And are you?

I don't know if I'm the most... Ha ha ha!

but I used to be a pretty good singer, yeah.

Do you have a celebrity crush?

Hannah Gadsby.

Oh!

You and me both.

So cool.

If you could say 4 words to anyone, who would you address and what would you say?

Yeah, I'd probably address any, like, kid who, like, is, like, a bit of a theater nerd like I was and say, like, "You are so cool."

♪ So we have a thing at "Tell Me More."

It's called plus one, and where we want to give you a chance to shout out somebody who's been instrumental to your thinking or your well-being.

Who is your plus one?

Ah, it'll probably be Mr. Frisell.

Mr. Frisell was my middle-school drama teacher.

Uh-huh.

And I write about him a little in my book, and unfortunately, he's passed away now, but, um, yeah, truly, the only one who believed in me when nobody else did.

What did he teach you in terms of acting?

It wasn't that.

It was-- I mean, in the book, I talk about this teacher who accused me of plagiarism and had no proof, so she basically took me to every single one of my other teachers and asked the teachers, "Do you think she's good enough to have written this?"

And all the teachers said, "No, you're not good enough," and the only one who said, "Of course she wrote it, of course she's-- of course she did it" was my drama teacher, Mr. Frisell.

Thanks to Mr. Frisell.

Yeah.

So special.

♪ We talked to Jennifer Garner, and we talked about the paparazzi and how relentless and exhausting and sometimes endangering... Uh-huh.

they can be.

Do you have a theory about why we are so obsessed with celebrities?

I do think that we kind of think it's juicy when women have "catfights," they call them, or beef.

And I think it very much is about our expectations for how women are supposed to behave in public, and when they don't, that's juicy, but-- It's thrilling.

Yes.

But if we never had those expectations of them in the first place, if they were allowed to be fully human people, rather than poised pictures of grace, then it wouldn't feel so juicy 'cause it wouldn't feel like an aberration from the norm.

So that's sort of my theory on that, and also, I think sometimes, you know, especially when you've gotten so high up-- like I--I sort of got pretty successful and didn't really have any... marks against me when I made my tweets-- but...I think we're very eager to tear people down when they sort of get up to... Sure.

heights, especially women.

It's like, "Who do you think you are?"

And then, weirdly, I feel like we're kind of eager to forgive them, like I think we like to watch the fall and then let some time pass and then like to reset.

I don't know.

I mean, look at Tiger Woods.

I think we're eager to forgive men.

Uh-huh.

I don't think we're eager to forgive women.

It's almost like benevolent misogyny.

Yeah, but it's exactly benevolent misogyny.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I think a lot of the hatred towards me was benevolent misogyny.

It's like, "Oh, no, I'm a feminist, but not that woman," like, "I don't like that."

Right.

"Like, not her, not Hillary Clinton, not Amber Heard,", like these kind of-- Right.

And it's--oh, boy.

You're really--when you say things like that, it's really strengthening misogyny without, like, you realizing it, but it's so ingrained that it feels like an emotional reaction, rather than a hate-filled one, like--like, a true reaction based on facts, but it's not, and so I think it's-- I think it's gonna--who knows if it's ever gonna--we're ever gonna be able to undo that, but-- OK, so try this.

Give me 3 adjectives for the way that people want to see you and 3 adjectives for the way you really are.

What the world wants me to be, still wants me to be, is, um, poised... grateful, and... heroic, maybe, I think?

Hmm.

And what I actually am is, um, emotional, wounded... and very grateful, but not in the way... the ways that the world... wants it to present.

What are you grateful for?

I'm grateful for the air I'm breathing right now.

I'm grateful for the opportunity to speak.

The thing that I'm most grateful for is this moment right here because everything else is an illusion.

That's very Buddhist, if we want to go back to the Buddhist thing, but it's true.

I mean, I think that's when my work dropped in for the better and my life dropped in for the better, is, "You're worthy now.

"Everything is great now.

Not when you lose 10 pounds, "not when you have the best job, not when you, you know, have the greatest boyfriend."

This moment is the coolest thing in the world, connecting to this person, being alive, learning about somebody, talking to somebody.

This is cool, and if I had to go back to waitressing tomorrow, how ... cool would that be?

Yeah.

To get to go back to something and see it with new eyes?

I truly believe that.

I am grateful for the present moment and for being able to... live in it, rather than in hustling for the future or worrying about the past.

It's awesome.

Ha ha ha!

Thank you so much.

Yeah.

Thank you.

I enjoyed this present moment with you.

Yes.

Thank you.

I did as well.

♪ If you enjoyed today's episode, you'll love my conversations with Lilly Singh and Selma Blair.

You can listen to every episode on "Kelly Corrigan Wonders" or watch anytime on pbs.org/kelly.

[Theme music playing] ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪

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